September 7th, 2019 
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Sursa: lockheedmartin.com
Incepand cu concluzia: deci Polonia a investit serios in Spike, cumparand atat rachete la cheie cat si transferul tehnologic, acum produce respectivele rachete la MESKO (nu e clar in ce procent dar suna bine) si se gandeste chiar la export insa cumpara Javelin pentru fortele teritoriale? Cel putin asa zice Jane’s.
S-ar fi cumparat 60 de lansatoare si 185 de rachete insa tot Jane’s estimeaza ca este doar o parte dintr-o comanda mult mai mare.
Javelin a fost intotdeauna cotata ca mai scumpa decat Spike asa ca optiunea polonezilor pentru o racheta importata la cheie, teoretic mai scumpa, in dauna unui produs teoretic local nu are nici o explicatie aparenta.
Cu atat mai mult cu cat polonezii aveau (?) in derulare un program pentru o racheta destinata infanteriei usoare, Pirat.
Problema logistica creata de existenta a inca unui tip de racheta anti-tanc si posibila diferenta de pret trebuie sa fie justificate cumva, asa ca intrebarea e ce poate Javelin sa faca si Spike nu.
Intrebarea a divizat blogosfera poloneza.
Conspirationistii considera ca rachetele nu sint de fapt destinate Poloniei ci altui stat desi asta ar fi o metoda foarte publica de a transfera Javelin unui stat tert. Si nu e ca si cand SUA se jeneaza sa vanda Javelin direct Ucrainei.
Tranzactionalistii presupun ca e dreptul platit administratiei americane si rezultatul influentei gigantilor americani producatori de armament desi cantitatea cumparata e nesemnificativa. Poate in viitor vor exista mai multe motive sa credem varianta asta.
Interoperationalistii spera ca de fapt rachetele vor ajunge la fortele pentru operatiuni speciale poloneze si nu la fortele teritoriale. Adica e vorba de interoperabilitatea cu aliatul american. Asta ar explica cantitatea mica cumparata dar nu si de ce polonezii nu au anuntat de la inceput ca destinatia va fi FOSul.
Technicistii opineaza ca ar fi vorba de usurinta de utilizare a Javelin (fire&forget) fata de antrenamentul mai special cerut de Spike in modul man-in-the-loop, vorba ce umbla prin targ fiind ca Spike nu i-a rupt gura respectivului targ in modul fire&forget, fiind nevoie de mana sigura a mesterului pentru a asigura finalul fericit. Adica Javelin ar fi mai potrivita pentru soldati prosti neinstruiti. Asta desi se pare ca testele poloneze au infirmat avantajul avut de Javelin in usurinta exploatarii.
Bine ca nu sintem intr-o situatie similara.
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Subleristii ce zic?
zic ca ai gresit blogul, am vazut niste caini trecand strada cu el in gura…
@Razvan Mihaeanu: Probabil ca dau sanse minime sa puna sublerul pe Javelin asa cum au facut cu Spike.
As a Polish military journalist, I would say that “conspiracyists” are only spreading conspiracy theories.
“Interoperationalists” don’t know that the client for Javelin is Polish artillery which can buy ATGM for territorial and operational units, but not for Polish special units whose can buy Javelins by itself.
The “technicians” are the people who are bought by Lockheed Martin and only spreading lies.
You should know that American lobbyists and ex-soldiers are working in Polish MoD and probably the same person (in Artillery and Rocket Units) is responsible for buying Javelins and making HOMAR dead. The purpose of buying Javelins is killing Polish projects of ATGM – Pirat and Moskit. Both of the missiles are cheaper than Spike and Javelin. Both of the missiles are “fire-and-forget”. Both of the missiles are “top-attack”. Both of the missiles are capable to attack targets beyond the line of sight – that’s what Javelin can’t do it.
You don’t seem like a happy customer. I guess it’s not the worst choice one could make. A bit on the expensive side but Fort Trump needs all the lobby it could get.
Interesting details on Pirat and Moskit (never heard of the latter), there are not many man-portable laser-guided top-attack ATGM in use, if any. That would make Pirat a bit of an oddity. Not sure about the fire&forget bit as Pirat is supposed to be laser-guided so, by definition, not a fire&forget weapon. Same thing about non-line of sight, you would need a forward observer which, for a short range weapon like Pirat, is overkill.
The choice wouldn’t be the worst. But Lockheed will sell us obsolete Block 0 mixed with software and CLU from Block 1 because they have a lot of spare parts for Block 0 which are incompatible with Block 1. Additionally, Russians know very well how to defend against and how to jam Block 0 Javelin – you can read article about that in Russian BTVT.
In case of Pirat you guide the missile via laser after its launch. The seeker catch short-lasting (3 – 5 s) beam pointed at the target during the top-attack profile flight and then remembers the target. Even if the target is moving.
Moskit is a reverse-engineered Spike-LR. Working one. With all the features from Spike-LR. And gonna be 50% cheaper than original one.
Estonia managed to get Block 1 a couple of years ago so why assume you will get something outdated?
So Pirat in not laser guided all the way however it’s not a true fire&forget weapon either. This has some drawbacks, mostly in terms of precision vs moving targets since you have to rely on a predicted location rather than the actual one. Probably OKish for short range weapons.
Regarding Moskit, what are the Israelis saying about it?
“Estonia managed to get Block 1 a couple of years ago so why assume you will get something outdated?”
Because we know it and some people are simply idiots only to serve for Uncle Sam, not own country. There will be a deal where Javelins for us will be folded with those spare parts in PZL-Mielec which lower costs up to 30%.
“Regarding Moskit, what are the Israelis saying about it?”
They will sell us ~80 Spike-LR2 launchers and ~800 missiles with ‘polonization’ in MESKO for peace of mind. But there’s still a problem with ATGMs for 208+ unmanned turrets and it could be a niche. And Moskit won’t be produced in MESKO because the production quality is shitty there and they can’t produce more than 300 missiles per year.
Btw, isn’t HOMAR based on HIMARS, I thought it is still alive and the contract with US was signed?
No, HOMAR is a HIMARS launcher produced in Poland, placed on a Polish truck, equipped with Polish TOPAZ C4ISR system and shooting Polish 227mm rockets.
There’s none of that here. There’s simple HIMARS with AFATDS from USA.
I guess it’s cheaper this way. There’s (almost) nothing preventing you from developing your own 227mm rockets later, with help from the Israelis if necessary.
In case of conflict with russians your factories will go first, so whatever 227mm rockets for HOMAR will be MIA and the launchers useless, at least for HIMARS you can still have some hopes of getting some ammo
The decision of equipping Poland and Romania with HIMARS has been taken from above, for some categories of weapons, Patriot included
So you say that HIMARS can use only American rockets and if it uses other rockets then it can’t use American ones? :)))
You will lose the production facilities and will need help including ammo.
That help is not coming because you are good catholics, los gringos americanos are interested to sell…
Decision to buy HIMARS was probably political.
Otherwise why don’t you face the russians all by yourselves, I’m sure those fancy polish made rockets and launchers will make all the difference 🙂
You’re very funny.
The fact that you buy Himars does not automatically exclude other “in-house” option, depends how much money do you have.
I thinks less-expensive and less-sophisticated ammo can be produced locally, depending on your army orders.
It can prove “costly” (from war-point-of-view) to rely on Himars only, or on local-made only, too.
If you rely only on Himars ammo, on large scale conflict it can be difficult to deliver even by US at a sustained pace. In exchange, you can build stockpiles of domestically made cheaper ammo, that can be used while Himars “silver bullets” are low on stock. However it would cost to integrate that ammo on Himars launchers.
Similarly, I hope Romanian LAROMs are not a dead end after Himars buy, and we will continue to use and upgrade with 122mm and 160mm (LAR Mk IV) ER&precision ammo… and cluster + thermobaric warheads too 🙂
de la aveau in dezvoltare si pana la un produs matur si foarte reliable e ceva distantza, e verificat, l’au cumparat atatzia, ce sa mai inventezi roata ca si inventatul costa si poate iese cu spitzele strambe…
Javelin missile scored 100 percent in five test firings from a UK-owned ground vehicle
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/eurosatory/2016/06/15/javelin-missile-scores-100-percent-in-uk-vehicle-tests/
dupa aia trebuie sa fie si ei un pic receptivi daca vor protectzie muricana, interoperativibibibibibibillilililitate, ajutor de munitzie in caz de
noi n’avem nic-io pr-oblem’a…
vor ei protectie americana dar vor si industrie locala
nu ca romani care o vor doar pe prima
ca nu stii niciodata cand te abandoneaza americani daca nu mai esti de interes pentru ei sau costul protectie nu se merita pt foloase